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Post by tomvalois on Apr 30, 2016 22:21:01 GMT -5
Is there anything in the documents you have about the majorette uniform? The documents I received from the sheriff's department are voluminous, and in no comprehensible order. I am still looking through them. However, if I understand correctly from my previous research, the missing majorette uniform is not as significant as some people make it out to be. If it were there on Saturday, but gone on Sunday, that would be significant. But from what I understand, it was simply gone on Sunday, and no one knew where it was on Saturday. No one knows the last time the uniform was in the victim's possession. She could have given it away, or loaned it to someone, or simply disposed of it six months before the murders, for all any of us know. Perhaps the family refuses to believe she would have disposed of something that was so important to her when she was in high school. But I don't buy it. I had many important things in high school. I have none of those things now. I will post again after I have read the whole file.
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Post by Sam on May 9, 2016 3:31:08 GMT -5
I'm looking forward to reading whatever tomvalois finds out from the records he got.
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Post by oceantracks on Jul 21, 2016 2:09:36 GMT -5
I'm looking forward to reading whatever tomvalois finds out from the records he got.
makes no sense that the In Cold Blood duo was involved...over and over we have been told that all signs point to someone she knew when she arrived home. Besides they weren't rapists, despite the aborted pass at the Clutter house. Are there pictures of them them with scratches on their face upon their arrest a short time later? Crazy case, hard to believe this one was this hard to solve.
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Post by jason on Jul 21, 2016 20:54:20 GMT -5
makes no sense that the In Cold Blood duo was involved...over and over we have been told that all signs point to someone she knew when she arrived home. Besides they weren't rapists, despite the aborted pass at the Clutter house. Are there pictures of them them with scratches on their face upon their arrest a short time later? Crazy case, hard to believe this one was this hard to solve. During the Clutter murders, didn't Richard Hickock want to rape the daughter? Maybe in the case of Christine Walker, Perry Smith didn't stop him.
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Post by jason on Jul 21, 2016 20:56:21 GMT -5
The documents I received from the sheriff's department are voluminous, and in no comprehensible order. I am still looking through them. However, if I understand correctly from my previous research, the missing majorette uniform is not as significant as some people make it out to be. If it were there on Saturday, but gone on Sunday, that would be significant. But from what I understand, it was simply gone on Sunday, and no one knew where it was on Saturday. No one knows the last time the uniform was in the victim's possession. She could have given it away, or loaned it to someone, or simply disposed of it six months before the murders, for all any of us know. Perhaps the family refuses to believe she would have disposed of something that was so important to her when she was in high school. But I don't buy it. I had many important things in high school. I have none of those things now. I will post again after I have read the whole file. Have you had a chance to go through those documents yet? We're all anxious to know what's in them.
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Post by crisrose on Feb 27, 2017 22:57:56 GMT -5
Is there anything in the documents you have about the majorette uniform? The documents I received from the sheriff's department are voluminous, and in no comprehensible order. I am still looking through them. However, if I understand correctly from my previous research, the missing majorette uniform is not as significant as some people make it out to be. If it were there on Saturday, but gone on Sunday, that would be significant. But from what I understand, it was simply gone on Sunday, and no one knew where it was on Saturday. No one knows the last time the uniform was in the victim's possession. She could have given it away, or loaned it to someone, or simply disposed of it six months before the murders, for all any of us know. Perhaps the family refuses to believe she would have disposed of something that was so important to her when she was in high school. But I don't buy it. I had many important things in high school. I have none of those things now. I will post again after I have read the whole file. The uniform was stored in plastic which might have led them to believe it was worth something. If they stole Christmas gifts they would have stolen it too. As for the marriage certificate: google "marriage certificate stolen" to see the many other cases of framed certs stolen off walls. Christine inviting someone into her home doesn't mean she 'must have known' her assailant(s). Just means she knew her husband would be there shortly and for whatever reason felt comfortable allowing them in. That's assuming they were visible when she arrived home and didn't secrete themselves/approach the house later. As for the claim "they weren't rapists." They also weren't arsonists. Doesn't mean they wouldn't burn down a house. Once someone is slicing throats and shooting people in the face, they've proven they're capable of anything.
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Post by Sam on Feb 28, 2017 1:20:39 GMT -5
The uniform was stored in plastic which might have led them to believe it was worth something. If they stole Christmas gifts they would have stolen it too. As for the marriage certificate: google "marriage certificate stolen" to see the many other cases of framed certs stolen off walls. Christine inviting someone into her home doesn't mean she 'must have known' her assailant(s). Just means she knew her husband would be there shortly and for whatever reason felt comfortable allowing them in. That's assuming they were visible when she arrived home and didn't secrete themselves/approach the house later. As for the claim "they weren't rapists." They also weren't arsonists. Doesn't mean they wouldn't burn down a house. Once someone is slicing throats and shooting people in the face, they've proven they're capable of anything. You're right, when people break in and burgle places, they take all kinds of things. I've known burglars to take things like staplers and perfume. I also agree that men that have never raped before will sometimes commit rape if the opportunity arises. Men that will murder whole families and kill two toddlers in cold blood will do anything.
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Post by madeline on Mar 1, 2017 3:50:33 GMT -5
While there's always the possibility some freak lusting after Christine Walker committed the murders, it's more likely Hickock and Smith were the killers. What are the chances that two men who had slaughtered an entire family in Kansas just happened to be in the area where another family was slaughtered a month later and didn't have anything to do with it?
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Post by clutterlayman on Oct 19, 2017 11:46:46 GMT -5
Yesterday (4/28/2016), I finally received from the Sarasota County Sheriff's Department a copy of the investigative file on the Walker homicides. I was intrigued (although not necessarily surprised) to find that many details of the case were misreported in the media, and never corrected. For example, it was widely reported that the cellophane from a pack of Kool cigarettes was found at the crime scene. In fact, the cellophane was red, and was inconsistent with the cellophane used on Kool cigarettes. A carton of Kool cigarettes, which had been purchased earlier that day by Mrs. Walker, was missing from the scene, which may be the source of confusion in the media accounts. As far as the Hickock and Smith DNA goes, each of the samples was either too degraded or too contaminated to extract full profiles on the killers. In addition, the suspect profile obtained from the victims' clothing had been contaminated with the victims' DNA, making the extraction of a full suspect profile impossible. However, it turns out that cold case investigators did collect DNA and/or palm prints from nearly 60 persons of interest. None of the palm prints were a match to latents found at the scene. The end result of the DNA testing was that they could not conclusively show that the DNA at the crime scene came from Hickock or Smith. However, they could exclude everyone they tested except Perry Smith as being the contributor. Also, in previous comments I noticed that some people are willing to chalk it up to coincidence that Smith and Hickock happened to be in Florida when the murders occurred. In fact, on the day of the murders, the pair were determined to be within minutes of the Walker house. They were witnessed shopping at Grant's Department store in Sarasota that day. Hickock and Smith were driving a (stolen) 1956 black and white Chevy. On the day of the murders, the Walkers visited three different car lots in hopes of trading their Plymouth in on a 1956 Chevy. The Walker house was about 100 feet from the Seaboard Railway tracks. A brakeman for the railway reported seeing a 1956 Chevy in front of the Walker house. The following morning, three different gas station attendants between Osprey and Arcadia identified Hickock (with a very scratched up face) and Smith stopping at their stations. These identifications were made before Hickock and Smith were arrested in Las Vegas for the Clutter murders, so the witnesses would not have known who they were at that point. And finally, there is at least some physical evidence implicating Hickock and Smith in the murders. A minister in Louisiana reported purchasing two dolls, still wrapped in Christmas paper, from Hickock and Smith. Based on descriptions of the wrapping paper, these are believed by investigators to have been presents stolen from the Walker home. Don McLeod (a friend and witness), identified from a photo lineup a pocket knife with a fruit tree carved into the handle that belonged to Clifford Walker but was missing from the crime scene. The knife was recovered from Hickock when they were arrested in Las Vegas. In all, my point is that, although mostly circumstantial, the connection between Hickock and Smith and the Walker murders is not merely coincidental. In fact, the cold case detective noted in her final report that the circumstantial evidence was overwhelming, and convincing enough for a Kansas judge to find probable cause to order the exhumation of Hickock and Perry. The final investigative report surmised that we will have to wait for new evidence or for DNA technology to improve before a more certain conclusion can be reached.
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Post by clutterlayman on Oct 19, 2017 12:00:16 GMT -5
The more I read the more I'm convinced Hickock and Smith were behind this horrific crime to rival their murder of the Clutters. One thing I don't see mentioned in the above threads is the fact usually mentioned that the Walkers (when car shopping earlier that day) were interested in the same make of car Smith and Hickock were seen driving in that area. I don't know how this knowledge came to be known but it has always been put forth as if someone knew this from a conversation the Walkers had with someone on cars. It has been suggested that the car played a part in an unfortunate meeting and I think that's entirely possible. Maybe the murderers met and talked briefly with the Walkers on a car lot... maybe struck up a conversation about the car... got their address and came to see them under the pretense of selling them the car (which i believe was stolen). They might have been parked in the driveway when Mrs. Walker drove up, and she, having recognized them from the car lot, didn't think to be cautious of them. This is speculation but it makes sense. As to why they took what they did from the home, for example the majorette uniform, I can't explain that but perhaps they (like some killers do) wanted a souvenier from their rape victim. Or maybe they intended to pawn the items for some fast cash.
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Post by Graveyardbride on Oct 20, 2017 11:41:29 GMT -5
The more I read the more I'm convinced Hickock and Smith were behind this horrific crime to rival their murder of the Clutters. One thing I don't see mentioned in the above threads is the fact usually mentioned that the Walkers (when car shopping earlier that day) were interested in the same make of car Smith and Hickock were seen driving in that area. I don't know how this knowledge came to be known but it has always been put forth as if someone knew this from a conversation the Walkers had with someone on cars. It has been suggested that the car played a part in an unfortunate meeting and I think that's entirely possible. Maybe the murderers met and talked briefly with the Walkers on a car lot... maybe struck up a conversation about the car... got their address and came to see them under the pretense of selling them the car (which i believe was stolen). They might have been parked in the driveway when Mrs. Walker drove up, and she, having recognized them from the car lot, didn't think to be cautious of them. This is speculation but it makes sense. As to why they took what they did from the home, for example the majorette uniform, I can't explain that but perhaps they (like some killers do) wanted a souvenier from their rape victim. Or maybe they intended to pawn the items for some fast cash. Hickock and Smith were driving a 1956 Chevy Bel Air they had stolen in Iowa. I've always believed they killed the Walker family. The fact they were in the same location where two entire families were slaughtered in less than five weeks is just too much of a coincidence.
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Post by clutterlayman on Oct 20, 2017 11:43:28 GMT -5
In regard to the majorette outfit, the only people who could tell you that was missing for sure would be the parental murder victims. I'm not sure how anyone would even know it was missing unless it had been framed and hanging on a wall that was now obviously missing something. The only other persons who would know it was missing from a closet would be family members of Christine's, so the bottom line is the majorette outfit could have long been gone (given away, sold, etc). I have a long and convoluted theory as to why the killer may have taken it, but it's probably more likely the murderer thought of pawning it. As to those who point to the outfit and a framed certificate as proof that Christine knew her murderer, I say that argument doesn't hold water. A local man who might have been having an affair with her would probably not be so stupid as to have such an incriminating item hidden away in his house for either his wife (if he was married and cheating on one) or friends and relatives to perhaps see (the missing outfit was most likely talked about in the papers after the murders). Finally, Smith and Hickock shouldn't be dismissed as suspects because they didn't rape the female victims in the Clutter case before they killed them. According to Smith, Hickock wanted to rape Nancy Clutter but he stopped him from doing so.
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Post by pat on Oct 20, 2017 20:47:40 GMT -5
In regard to the majorette outfit, the only people who could tell you that was missing for sure would be the parental murder victims. I'm not sure how anyone would even know it was missing unless it had been framed and hanging on a wall that was now obviously missing something. The only other persons who would know it was missing from a closet would be family members of Christine's, so the bottom line is the majorette outfit could have long been gone (given away, sold, etc). I have a long and convoluted theory as to why the killer may have taken it, but it's probably more likely the murderer thought of pawning it. As to those who point to the outfit and a framed certificate as proof that Christine knew her murderer, I say that argument doesn't hold water. A local man who might have been having an affair with her would probably not be so stupid as to have such an incriminating item hidden away in his house for either his wife (if he was married and cheating on one) or friends and relatives to perhaps see (the missing outfit was most likely talked about in the papers after the murders). Finally, Smith and Hickock shouldn't be dismissed as suspects because they didn't rape the female victims in the Clutter case before they killed them. According to Smith, Hickock wanted to rape Nancy Clutter but he stopped him from doing so. In the article, Lee said that "her royal blue majorette’s uniform was carefully wrapped and stored in a cedar chest," so that's where it was so far as her family members knew. But something could have happened between the time that they saw it and the murders. She was an attractive woman and at times, I'm sure she wished that she hadn't gotten married so young. There could have been a fight between the husband and wife that caused one or the other of them to destroy the majorette uniform and the marriage license. People have been known to rip up marriage licenses, wedding pictures and other things like that.
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Post by sabre0302 on May 28, 2018 22:35:23 GMT -5
My question is...if someone else was parked there before christine got home..she had to have known the killer. The media states Cliff had a loaded gun in his jeep. If he pulled up and saw a vehicle that was unfamiliar, why would he just walk in his home with his children, unprepared for possible danger? I understand that they may have ran into hickock and smith possibly at a car lot or gas station..but why didnt anyone else see them? I still think it was McCall. I dont think there was an affair going on. I think he had it out for Christine, and was jealous of Cliff. There was no reaon to kill two babies, unless they couod identify you.
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Post by Kate on May 29, 2018 8:11:21 GMT -5
My question is...if someone else was parked there before christine got home..she had to have known the killer. The media states Cliff had a loaded gun in his jeep. If he pulled up and saw a vehicle that was unfamiliar, why would he just walk in his home with his children, unprepared for possible danger? I understand that they may have ran into hickock and smith possibly at a car lot or gas station..but why didnt anyone else see them? I still think it was McCall. I dont think there was an affair going on. I think he had it out for Christine, and was jealous of Cliff. There was no reaon to kill two babies, unless they couod identify you.
I've always thought that the killer was someone who knew the family and that the target was Christine. Two things that were missing were Christine's majorette uniform and the Walkers' marriage license and I can't see two strangers taking those things.
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