|
Post by Isbeau on Jun 11, 2019 15:15:55 GMT -5
It's a done deal now. Mary Jane Wilson ne Kelly was THE Mary Jane Kelly. She had a kid with Joe Fleming. The baby was sent back to Liverpool, and the grandmother covered up the illegitimacy of the child and the desertion of the mother, and subsequently her daughter's identity as the Jack the Ripper murder victim with two MJK/W impostors who conspired with her to commit multiple offences against the public record including a birth registration, baptismal record, workhouse registers, orphanage records, a death record and a burial record with the second impostor filling in for the fake death and burial in 1890. The first impostor, the sister-in-law, Jane Wilson, was not the impostor who died and was buried as "Jane Wilson wife of Robert Wilson baker" but she was still pretending to be the mother Mary Jane Wilson, still using the name Jane Wilson, in the 1892 orphanage registration of the son William. She was the impostor back in the summer of 1888 but she must have ditched after the murder by JtR of the woman she was impersonating in November, only to come back sometime after the 1892 register. I guess she didn't know about the second impostor used by the grandmother to impersonate MJK in death. www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=31232&page=11Another person you can easily dig up, I'm assuming, for further proof.
|
|
|
Post by steve on Jun 11, 2019 17:20:29 GMT -5
It's a done deal now. Mary Jane Wilson ne Kelly was THE Mary Jane Kelly. She had a kid with Joe Fleming. The baby was sent back to Liverpool, and the grandmother covered up the illegitimacy of the child and the desertion of the mother, and subsequently her daughter's identity as the Jack the Ripper murder victim with two MJK/W impostors who conspired with her to commit multiple offences against the public record including a birth registration, baptismal record, workhouse registers, orphanage records, a death record and a burial record with the second impostor filling in for the fake death and burial in 1890. The first impostor, the sister-in-law, Jane Wilson, was not the impostor who died and was buried as "Jane Wilson wife of Robert Wilson baker" but she was still pretending to be the mother Mary Jane Wilson, still using the name Jane Wilson, in the 1892 orphanage registration of the son William. She was the impostor back in the summer of 1888 but she must have ditched after the murder by JtR of the woman she was impersonating in November, only to come back sometime after the 1892 register. I guess she didn't know about the second impostor used by the grandmother to impersonate MJK in death. www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=31232&page=11Another person you can easily dig up, I'm assuming, for further proof.
I didn't see any of that at the page you linked. Did they dig the Fleming guy up and do DNA testing?
|
|
|
Post by Isbeau on Jun 13, 2019 21:27:06 GMT -5
They'll just say he's the wrong Joseph Fleming as if there were a whack of Joseph Flemings having kids with Mary Jane Kellys at the same time. So it could be another JF/MJK dalliance. Whatever! We already have a positive familial DNA match. This is not a shawl with DNA on it. This is two people spitting in a vial. One is JF's cousin and the other is MJK/W's great granddaughter. They are a familial match and they are from opposite sides of the country. It's hard to come up with a credible scenario for a false positive, not involving impostors. This is GSK familial DNA evidence. They didn't use Ancestry directly but they used Ancestry raw DNA data on GedMatch. It's legitimate. Other say there is no evidence she left Liverpool. However between 1882 and 1884, there are two Liverpool workhouse records for her related to arrests for drunkeness and being "found in the road" and she came to the notice of a Birkenhead police officer when she was begging. Then there's nothing for the next four years except a falsified birth record and a proven impostor in 1887 and 1888. That's evidence she left. vote.pollcode.com/43323729
|
|
|
Post by Isbeau on Sept 8, 2019 20:46:23 GMT -5
It's a done deal now. Mary Jane Wilson ne Kelly was THE Mary Jane Kelly. She had a kid with Joe Fleming. The baby was sent back to Liverpool, and the grandmother covered up the illegitimacy of the child and the desertion of the mother, and subsequently her daughter's identity as the Jack the Ripper murder victim with two MJK/W impostors who conspired with her to commit multiple offences against the public record including a birth registration, baptismal record, workhouse registers, orphanage records, a death record and a burial record with the second impostor filling in for the fake death and burial in 1890. The first impostor, the sister-in-law, Jane Wilson, was not the impostor who died and was buried as "Jane Wilson wife of Robert Wilson baker" but she was still pretending to be the mother Mary Jane Wilson, still using the name Jane Wilson, in the 1892 orphanage registration of the son William. She was the impostor back in the summer of 1888 but she must have ditched after the murder by JtR of the woman she was impersonating in November, only to come back sometime after the 1892 register. I guess she didn't know about the second impostor used by the grandmother to impersonate MJK in death. www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=31232&page=11Another person you can easily dig up, I'm assuming, for further proof.
I didn't see any of that at the page you linked. Did they dig the Fleming guy up and do DNA testing?
Do you really think that's necessary? Compare this to the Zodiac familial DNA testing that's gone on: If they find out that the Zodiac DNA matches the family of a known Zodiac suspect, isn't that enough, or do they have to get his DNA to prove it "100%" even if it means "disturbing" the dead?
|
|
|
Post by jason on Sept 8, 2019 22:23:26 GMT -5
Do you really think that's necessary? Compare this to the Zodiac familial DNA testing that's gone on: If they find out that the Zodiac DNA matches the family of a known Zodiac suspect, isn't that enough, or do they have to get his DNA to prove it "100%" even if it means "disturbing" the dead? You’re making quite a leap there. Even if Joseph Fleming was a distant cousin of a descendant of someone called Mary Jane Wilson, it doesn’t prove Mary Jane Wilson was Ripper victim Mary Jane Kelly.
|
|
|
Post by Isbeau on Sept 9, 2019 0:17:21 GMT -5
The familial DNA test wasn't done to prove MJW was MJK. It done to find out who the great grandfather was, with the assumption that the great grandmother MJW was the real Mary Jane Kelly based on all the evidence from the historical records, and the fact that she had a son in 1887 when Mary Jane Kelly was in Whitechapel living with Joseph Barnett for 5 months after leaving Joseph Fleming.
Either way, it's not a big leap of faith when there is really no other way for Joseph Fleming and the descendant of Mary Jane Wilson to be related other than he's her great grandfather, unless one of Joseph Fleming's ancestors from Kent was having illegitimate children in Scotland and/or Ireland or one of Mary Jane Wilson's Irish ancestors was doing that vice-versa. (A great grandfather and a great granddaughter would have the same amount of shared DNA as first cousins if you want to dig him up. He's buried 15 feet from the Kray twins.)
This Mary Jane Kelly has been directly linked to Walter Sickert and so has the real Mary Jane Kelly recently through the "unofficial" identification of her "gentleman", who took her to France, as Captain Verney whose wife worked with Sickert's, thereby giving credence to the "debunked" stories of Sickert knowing and helping Mary get work, so maybe Patricia Cornwell would be interested in such a venture.
|
|
|
Post by Isbeau on Nov 16, 2019 11:05:24 GMT -5
The average person theoretically and in actuality is able to do Forensic Genealogy to ID people related to unsolved cases, even to include or exclude suspects, using online ancestry services. For example, here is one of the "missing persons" suspects for DB Cooper found alive so would be eliminated if you believe Cooper died in the jump, or included if you believe he lived. unsolvedmysteries.fandom.com/wiki/Melvin_Wilson
|
|
|
Post by kitty on Nov 16, 2019 15:27:44 GMT -5
The average person theoretically and in actuality is able to do Forensic Genealogy to ID people related to unsolved cases, even to include or exclude suspects, using online ancestry services. For example, here is one of the "missing persons" suspects for DB Cooper found alive so would be eliminated if you believe Cooper died in the jump, or included if you believe he lived. How would you ID someone or exclude a suspect in a case without a sample of the DNA found at the crime scene?
|
|
|
Post by steve on Nov 16, 2019 23:54:31 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Isbeau on Nov 17, 2019 15:54:26 GMT -5
That was interesting, steve. I'm always one to agree with any link between serial killers and art. The real MJK was said to be an artist and was linked to Walter Sickert by artist Florence Pash. Mary Jane Wilson has two descendants who are professional artists on two different continents. William John Wilson was an artist and has a cartoon sketch from the war available online - a German soldier running from a WW1 British tank entitled The Tortoise and the Herr.
|
|
|
Post by Isbeau on Nov 17, 2019 16:03:16 GMT -5
The average person theoretically and in actuality is able to do Forensic Genealogy to ID people related to unsolved cases, even to include or exclude suspects, using online ancestry services. For example, here is one of the "missing persons" suspects for DB Cooper found alive so would be eliminated if you believe Cooper died in the jump, or included if you believe he lived. How would you ID someone or exclude a suspect in a case without a sample of the DNA found at the crime scene? It's only possible in certain unusual cases like DB Cooper. If my father disappeared and I found on Ancestry I have a half-brother born in 1969 and he's a brother from a different mother and he says dad died in 1970, then he can't be DB Cooper. If he disappeared on Thanksgiving in 1971 or died after that, then he could be DB Cooper depending on what you think happened to him. Then there's the case of the Mad Trapper of Rat River. I think you could work a good case based on the public records. One could definitely rule out his or her great great uncle "Bjorn" by finding him alive after 1932. You'd still want DNA if you can't rule him out. If the Royal Conspiracy Theory of Jack the Ripper was true, and you were descended from Annie Crook, it could also be partly substantiated with a DNA test to see if you have royal blood. PS Here’s the latest Trapper suspect found through a genealogical source. Familial DNA testing is now in the works. Attachments:
|
|