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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 16:50:35 GMT -5
Weston-Davies was given "conditional" permission to go ahead with an exhumation but the project was prohibitive so it's not going to happen. The only evidence he had to give the UK government was the name Davies and Welsh birthplace and a brother nicknamed Ianto which matches the witnesses oral history, and the fact that she disappeared and hasn't been found in the record after 1888.
By herself, she might look like a good candidate. But even going by just the witnesses stories, that's only 3 matches out of a dozen points. There are others that match in age, Welsh origin and number of brothers. I know one with 4 matches out of a dozen. And most of Mary's story is considered fabricated.
I personally believe the family still knows about their Mary but don't want to talk about it. Here's a link on how to go about researching MJK: xtremepsychology.proboards.com/thread/146/research-jack-rippers-mystery-victim
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Post by jason on Jan 5, 2018 17:27:24 GMT -5
Weston-Davies was given "conditional" permission to go ahead with an exhumation but the project was prohibitive so it's not going to happen. The only evidence he had to give the UK government was the name Davies and Welsh birthplace and a brother nicknamed Ianto which matches the witnesses oral history, and the fact that she disappeared and hasn't been found in the record after 1888.
By herself, she might look like a good candidate. But even going by just the witnesses stories, that's only 3 matches out of a dozen points. There are others that match in age, Welsh origin and number of brothers. I know one with 4 matches out of a dozen. And most of Mary's story is considered fabricated.
I personally believe the family still knows about their Mary but don't want to talk about it. Here's a link on how to go about researching MJK: xtremepsychology.proboards.com/thread/146/research-jack-rippers-mystery-victim
Exhumations aren't that expensive. The reason the cost would be prohibitive in this case is because no one knows for sure where she's buried. When her grave was originally marked in the 1950s, the marker was supposedly placed on the wrong grave. It was marked again in the 1990s, but apparently no one is sure that's the right spot either. There's a possibility that she was buried somewhere else, that her body was later moved to another location or even to another cemetery, and there's also the possibility that her body was stolen from the cemetery.
I don't buy the claim of Weston-Davies that Kelly's murder was a revenge killing.
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Post by pat on Jan 6, 2018 7:04:38 GMT -5
I don't buy the claim of Weston-Davies that Kelly's murder was a revenge killing.
I don't either. Only an insane person would go to all that much trouble and commit such a gruesome murder for the purpose of revenge and if a man was that crazy, killing Mary Kelly wouldn't have been the first or the last crime that he committed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 21:40:27 GMT -5
I think Weston-Davies would have been better served to have his book only about his aunt and not bring in a new Jack the Ripper theory. Then he could have covered all the main candidates and let people decide for themselves who she was and whether her identity suggests a solution to the murders. Now his publisher considers all other candidates a conflict of interest.
The publisher BTW is the same one who owns the "Ripper Diary".
I think her place of origin is the second thing Mary Kelly would lie about after her age. Elizabeth Weston Davies would have been 32. But I didn't hear the usual litany of "she's too old."
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Post by madeline on Jan 12, 2018 0:03:36 GMT -5
I think Weston-Davies would have been better served to have his book only about his aunt and not bring in a new Jack the Ripper theory. Then he could have covered all the main candidates and let people decide for themselves who she was and whether her identity suggests a solution to the murders. Now his publisher considers all other candidates a conflict of interest.
The publisher BTW is the same one who owns the "Ripper Diary".
I think her place of origin is the second thing Mary Kelly would lie about after her age. Elizabeth Weston Davies would have been 32. But I didn't hear the usual litany of "she's too old."
Do you recommend Jack The Ripper: A True Love Story? I've thought about ordering it, but some Jack the Ripper theories really stretch the imagination.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2018 14:37:19 GMT -5
No Madeline, I wouldn't recommend Jack the Ripper: A True Love Story. But I might be biased as this book created a conflict of interest with the publisher who otherwise liked my Mary Jane Kelly story idea.
Plus I automatically dismiss any Mary Jane Kelly from Wales since the City Missionary from the news reports said categorically she's "not a Welshwoman". I personally think he would be most likely to know as he deals with people and had at least two Welsh colleagues out of about a hundred workers. And he had the right Mary Jane Kelly in mind by his description of her. She could have come from a Welsh neighborhood like one in Liverpool and/or worked in a household of a Welsh family.
Everyone still automatically looks for her in Wales though Wales has been gone over with a fine-tooth comb already including all the mine disasters.
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Post by steve on Jan 12, 2018 23:58:20 GMT -5
No Madeline, I wouldn't recommend Jack the Ripper: A True Love Story. But I might be biased as this book created a conflict of interest with the publisher who otherwise liked my Mary Jane Kelly story idea.
Plus I automatically dismiss any Mary Jane Kelly from Wales since the City Missionary from the news reports said categorically she's "not a Welshwoman". I personally think he would be most likely to know as he deals with people and had at least two Welsh colleagues out of about a hundred workers. And he had the right Mary Jane Kelly in mind by his description of her. She could have come from a Welsh neighborhood like one in Liverpool and/or worked in a household of a Welsh family.
Everyone still automatically looks for her in Wales though Wales has been gone over with a fine-tooth comb already including all the mine disasters.
Am I missing something? The article that Lee wrote says that Mary Jane Kelly was born in Ireland. Then it says that her landlord remembered that she got a letter from her mother in Ireland. It also says that after her husband died that she went to live in Wales with her cousin, who was a prostitute. It seems that prostitutes went by different names, so if she was at the infirmary in Wales, like she told people, she might not have been using her real name. Then there's this that she told her neighbor not long before she was killed:
I don't understand why everybody's looking for her in Wales.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 15:17:19 GMT -5
They do look for her birth in Ireland, specifically Limerick. There are very few surviving census records but there are new church records being made available.
There are only second hand reports of what Mary said to go on. Her landlord, John McCarthy, and the City Missionary report her getting letters from her mother "in Ireland" but that doesn't mean they saw the envelop with the return address. The City Missionary said he heard a lot about them. So maybe McCarthy did to.
McCarthy was a performer and singer and landlord who staged shows and fights. His great granddaughter was singer comedian Kay Kendall who married Rex Harrison. Some say Mary was related to McCarthy and that's why he let her rent go arrears for weeks. She also said she had a relative on the stage although it was supposed to be a female relative.
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Post by catherine on Jul 29, 2018 17:28:39 GMT -5
Rosalie Bernstein (Ochse) supplied courtesans with fashionable dressed to be paid for in installments or by the wealthy john. She was in court many times trying to get the money she was owed. One of them was the famous Mabel Gray. Could it also have been Mary Kelly? Mary Jane Kelly was said to have went with Mrs. Buki (Boeku) to retrieve a box of dresses from a French Lady. Madam Rosalie spoke French. Mary Kelly could well be Mary Jane Wilson ne Kelly, the aunt of Rosalie's daughter in law, Elizabeth Rawlinson. She married Rosalie's son Oscar Bernstein (Ochse). Mary Jane Wilson came from Liverpool and her brother Henry married Elizabeth's aunt on her mother's side. Mary Kelly also told a friend in Millers Court, Elizabeth Albrook, that she had a relative "on the London stage". I'm wondering if it could be one of Rosalie's daughters.
If she was anything but a poor street woman, why didn't someone claim her body? It was her landlord and Joseph Barnett who insisted that she receive a Catholic burial. The funeral was delayed for 10 days, so if she had any family, surely they would have had time to get there, yet, there were no family members at her funeral. |
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Post by Isbeau on Jul 31, 2018 18:17:29 GMT -5
Some might have been there incognito.
The inquest was adjourned very quickly. It might have been at behest of the family that didn't want any negative publicity.
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Post by steve on Aug 1, 2018 9:35:52 GMT -5
Some might have been there incognito. The inquest was adjourned very quickly. It might have been at behest of the family that didn't want any negative publicity. There are all kinds of things that could have been, but there's no proof. I don't see that her inquest was adjourned any more quickly than the others. What makes you think that it was? |
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Post by Isbeau on Aug 2, 2018 13:20:24 GMT -5
The inquest was the shortest of the five. It was only one day. The others went 2. They're saying it was adjourned because the coroner didn't want to get into the gory details in public. But some of the witnesses weren't called. I think most of the gory details were already published. I know the papers said the breasts were on the table when they weren't.
The "consensus" is that Mary Jane Kelly's family didn't hear about it or didn't recognize her. There's no proof of that either and it makes little sense but that's what they go with. McCarthy the lodging house keeper had a lot of pull too. We know Mary worked in the West End with high class clients. So it could have been an early Cleveland Street scandal.
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Post by Kate on Aug 2, 2018 14:45:14 GMT -5
The inquest was the shortest of the five. It was only one day. The others went 2. They're saying it was adjourned because the coroner didn't want to get into the gory details in public. But some of the witnesses weren't called. I think most of the gory details were already published. I know the papers said the breasts were on the table when they weren't. The "consensus" is that Mary Jane Kelly's family didn't hear about it or didn't recognize her. There's no proof of that either and it makes little sense but that's what they go with. McCarthy the lodging house keeper had a lot of pull too. We know Mary worked in the West End with high class clients. So it could have been an early Cleveland Street scandal. |
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Post by Isbeau on Aug 2, 2018 15:53:58 GMT -5
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Post by Sam on Nov 9, 2021 6:04:54 GMT -5
Today's Thought for the Day is a quote from "The Picture of Dorian Gray" and Dorian sees Basil Hallward hurrying along the street with his coat collar turned up and he's carrying a bag. November the 9th was the day Mary Kelly was killed and some people say that Oscar Wilde revealed the identity of Jack the Ripper in the book. Is this quote one of the clues?
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